complaint against abap development mod

[Former Member]

Hi there,

I want to draw attention to how posts are deleted right away and for weird reasons as per what I feel. Threads are deleted as per the mod's discretion, there's no option to send the thread for review, I do not know if the mod(s) who deleted my threads sent it for review to another mod before doing so. SCN is the only forum on the internet to get quick answers to one's doubts and I think the mod's don't realize there are beginners around here. They don't even seem to realize that people put it 10-15mins to post a question and another 15mins to wait and come back for replies just to find the thread gone with a one-line reason as wisdom behind it.

As an solution to this I believe the mod's name must be mentioned when he wants to delete a thread after all it's not like one's going to track down and shoot him but at least such irresponsible behavior will be out and the man can be removed from the mod position.

here's the "reasons":

1.don't link to SAPTECHNICAL

I have no idea what the mod has against that website when a lot of threads have linked to other websites. And I had followed the steps from a tutorial on that site so it's obvious I have to mention those steps here when I am seeking help. Does the mod expect to copy and paste content here?

The mod could have just removed the link to saptechnical and be done with it instead of deleting the whole thread.

2."Interview type" questions:

Whenever I google for "Interview type" as per mod's definition I am brought to SCN, there are 100s of "Interview type" questions and this is just as per the mod's personal opinion of what an "Interview type" is.

3. And the height of it all: "All this stuff is covered in ABAP programming courses and help.sap.com. If in doubt, you can always run in debug or try to change bits and see what happens."

Well genius I did my course from a different city so you expect me to call up my prof or enroll back to another one. And help.sap.com? I'm pretty sure a lot is covered there so let us just shut down SCN and spend 2000yrs there searching for answers.

Debug? Yes that's what I was trying to learn and maybe somebody would have told me how to go about it before you came in to save space on the SCN servers!

here's a screen:

[matt · Accepted solution]

A Jürgen points out, any rejection is one moderator's decision.It's not voted on, my decisions are not routinely reviewed, nor are any other moderators' decisions. I'm dealing with many entries on the moderator queue each day. Most people seem to be quite happy with the one line explaining the reasons. For those who are not, I'm happy to give a very detailed explanation here.

I certainly rejected some of your posts.

First of all, a rejection doesn't mean that you've done anything criminal. It just means that in the opinion of the moderator, your post has some issues that mean it should not be published. So there's no need to feel offended or slighted in any way.

1. Linking to saptechnical is one of these. You weren't to know, no blame is attached. Links to sites that contain SAP copyrighted information without permission are routinely rejected. Yes, I could have edited your post - I chose not to. I find this is generally more effective in preventing recurrence

2. Any question that appears to be an interview type question will be deleted. I say "interview type", because sometimes they're genuine queries. Your questions were:

• Can views work on one table
• A not very clear question on FAE (btw - FAE loses compared to INNER JOIN, so why you thought it was the other way, I've no idea).
• Can a structure be of any use without it being used in a report/program or some other application of some kind. Can I just view data by defining it in the dictionary?

Taken together these look like interview questions. Of course, with a little thought, you should be able to arrive at an answer to them yourself. For example - try to create a view on one table. Or read the SAP help - it's very clear.

3. No. I don't expect you to call your professor or re-enroll. I expect you to look at your course notes. You question was about how interactive ALV works. However, in my view, they were things that you would benefit from working out for yourself. It isn't hard to learn to use the debugger. It's not difficult to find and read the relevant parts of help.sap.com. It's not difficult to play around with a program to try to understand what different bits do. It just takes time and effort.

Basic questions are permitted, but - and this is the important bit - not questions that you can easily work out for yourself. When I started in this business we didn't even have the internet - yet somehow we managed to get the information we needed by reading the documentation, asking colleagues and playing around. I'm more than happy to help anyone, but I won't help people who appear not to want to put in a bit of effort themselves.

Moderation is largely subjective. No-one will ever agree with all moderator decisions.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

.

[matt · Accepted solution]

Oh, and re: interview questions, I note in this thread: you say " I am preparing for interviews ". So it seems my call was correct.

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Thanks for the reply.

I really appreciate the detailed response. And I was not offended or so just that after asking questions then the answers come and suddenly the whole thread is gone for just because I linked to the tutorial website. Also I do not find that in the section "grounds for rejections of posts".

And the thread had 7-8 answers so the time and effort people put in to answer was also wasted for nothing hence I still maintain editing such posts is a better option.

And yes I did try to workout those issues on my own but felt the need to be thorough and about interview type ones even that is not mentioned in the scn rules and also a lot of such questions are already available on scn.

regards,

Allwyn

[custodio_deoliveira]

Hi all,

I will agree with everything Jurgen, Matt, Coleen, Gali and Jelena said. But if there's one thing I MUST agree with Allwyn is the "it's covered in ABAP course". Come on!

Cheers,

Custodio

[matt]

There are many questions that get posted (and rejected) which are covered in training. The purpose of this site is not to replace training, reading a book or doing your own research. I don't think it unreasonable to expect posters to have had some form of training .- even if not formal classroom, they can read books or the wikis, blogs, documents and help.sap.com.

The specific questions covered in an ABAP course in this instance were questions about what INDEX does, how READ works and how DELETE works. The OP wanted to understand how they worked in a simple ALV program. By simply going through the code and reading the ABAP help, course notes or the relevant entries in help.sap.com, he should be able to work it out.

This is basic programming skill that anyone wishing to program must develop and must be able to develop.

In the BW forums we get questions like. "How do I move data from one cube to another", or "What's a PSA".

In these instances I also refer people to their course notes.

[custodio_deoliveira]

Hi Matt,

Matthew Billingham wrote:

I don't think it unreasonable to expect posters to have had some form of training .- even if not formal classroom, they can read books or the wikis, blogs, documents and help.sap.com.

Thanks for your reply. If this is what you mean by "training" I'm ok with that. But the way it was posted it seemed (to me at least) that you (or whoever the moderator was) was suggesting the OP to go and take some classroom course (not explicit but that's what I understood) before asking questions.

Cheers,

Custodio

[matt]

Almost. I was suggesting that if the OP hasn't had training then maybe it would be a good idea to invest in some - or at least buy a book, or do some own research - before posting.

[Former Member]

Hi

I wasn't asking "how read, delete, index works" at all, I know how they work but my question was what they are doing in that particular program.

Like in the delete statements case I did comment them to see changes in the code and nothing happened.

Similarly with fieldcatalog_merge what I was taught is that it's used to display column headings in the output but those work fine just by using list_display.

And these were questions which I had to ASK someone and since I'm on my own till I start working so I put those here.

regards,

Allwyn

[matt]

You obviously think your questions were reasonable. I did not. I took action. The decision was reviewed at your request and the same conclusions were reached.

[Jelena]

Our moderators and Gali are too kind to reply to the threads like this. First not using Google to search before posting the questions and then not searching for already posted rants regarding moderation and basic questions (this one is only 8 days old). Sure, why bother.

I'll go on the record that I've reported this thread as well for not searching. Read this blog and start using Google. This might be not very "mentorly" of me, but this kind of entitlement culture where a free answer is expected in 15 minutes (to something that we can google ourselves in 2) really grinds my gears.

[former_member46]

I'm so glad Allwyn that you raised your concerns here and received appropriate responses from our moderators.

Our moderators are dedicated members who help keep community quality up on a daily basis. They care. Its especially hard in the very active ABAP spaces when new freshers come daily.

I'd encourage all members to read our Rules of Engagement and try to follow them in order to help keep our community as a place where new freshers will always wish to join and learn from. This is something which will need to be done together, by all.

Please check the people tab of the space to see who the relevant moderators are so that you can address them with any concerns you encounter. But also keep in mind they are subject matter experts who voluntarily moderate daily so that we may all benefit and therefore address those concerns respectfully.

Thank you ,

Gali

[Former Member]

It's surprising I'm not getting one straight reply to what I am pointing at!

I'm not questioning the knowledge seniors have here. Just trying to point out that what is "basic", "simple questions" for someone with 5years in ABAP is not the same for people who are just starting out.

I have no incentive to "rant" here. This is a genuine concern so I put it here.

I'll try giving some examples:

these are all interview questions:

session vs call transaction

https://scn.sap.com/thread/721344

continue vs exit

http://scn.sap.com/thread/619972

data element vs domain

http://scn.sap.com/thread/821139

check table vs value table

http://scn.sap.com/thread/958051

Then here on linking to other websites:

The only reason given was "don't link to saptechnical" . .but if I'm working on a tutorial from there I have to mention the steps while asking a question about it hence I linked to it.

How is one to ask questions without mentioning the configuration steps taken?

And I'm not sure if linking to other sites is against the rules. It is said "Do not embed links to ads in your posts."

And as far as editing my threads goes, this was a perfect case for the mods to just delete the link and be done with it instead of deleting a thread with 7-8 answers which did nothing but put all the efforts of the one to asked and of those who answered to waste.

[matt]

Re: basic questions. Been discussed many many times. See this thread. The points is that basic questions that in my opinion can be answered easily with a little effort will be rejected. You are perfectly entitled to have a different opinion and believe that even with extraordinary effort on your part you could not possibly have worked out a solution.

Your links are from 2008 or earlier, and therefore made before the current rules of engagement existed. Any recent posts which are basic and/or interview type questions, if spotted, will be dealt with exactly as yours. You are not being singled out, I assure you.

Linking to other sites is permitted, provided that the link is not the sole purpose of the post. Linking to sites that post stolen copyrighted information is not permitted.

Not all rules are spelled out in the RoE. This is a necessity as moderation is a subjective activity. You may not like that, but I doubt that it is going to change any time soon.

Are those answers straight enough for you?

[Former Member]

"Not all rules are spelled out in the RoE. This is a necessity as moderation is a subjective activity."

So now it goes from "read the ROE" to "Not all rules are spelled out in the RoE". That's a deal breaker.

And it's subjective and won't be changed so be it but then I think mentioning the mod's name or maybe add a just one time review option may help.

And of course I am well aware I'm not being singled out, these are international forums why would I even think that?

regards.

[matt]

When it comes to moderation you've got a choice.

1. Spell out absolutely everything in the rules

2. Spell out major points in the rules, but otherwise allow moderators to use their judgement..

The problem with 1. is that you get people operating within the letter of the rules, but outside the spirit. The problem with 2. is that there's less certainty about what's permitted.

What is the purpose of the rules? Just to be obeyed? Of course not. The purpose of the rules is to show what is and isn't permitted, so that the site can be protected from harm to its primary purposes of a) providing a use-able, searchable knowledge base, b) allowing the community to help one another. It was decided that option 2) would be most effective in achieving this goal.

In essence "No you didn't break the rules, but allowing your post to remain would nonetheless have caused greater harm to the site than it would have created benefit". The direction to the RoE is to remind members of the spirit of the rules.

The mod name thing is being added, I think. We all agree it's a good idea. You can raise the idea of all moderator decisions being reviewed in the ideas space, but I think it is a non-starter. I regularly deal with 40-100 entries in the moderator queue per day. It would simply cause further delays, and more work for the moderators, who are all unpaid volunteers.

And of course I am well aware I'm not being singled out, these are international forums why would I even think that? Who knows! But seriously some people do take it awfully personally.

[Former Member]

nope! nothing personal . .thanks for the interaction.

regards.

[Colleen]

Hi Allwyn

I have no incentive to "rant" here. This is a genuine concern so I put it here.

Really? I understand written language can be misinterpreted here but as I read this post it just sounded like one big rant because your life was not made easier

They don't even seem to realize that people put it 10-15mins to post a question and another 15mins to wait and come back for replies

A 15 minute SLA is quite impressive for a an online community that provides FREE advise. Good luck getting that as a paid customer on SAP Marketplace or anywhere else. Part of the reason you can check back in 15 minutes and get a good answer is because the moderators remove the noise and clutter to allow members to focus on quality contributions.

So now it goes from "read the ROE" to "Not all rules are spelled out in the RoE". That's a deal breaker.

Deal break - How so? Is this a deal breaker in you participating on this community? If everything was spelt out in the RoE it would turn into a privacy/terms and conditions agreement where most people skip over.

Most developers I know have a genuine curiosity and try to learn through trial and error (of course in a sandpit). You would gain a lost more assistance from this community if you attempt to do something first, research it and then ask a question to clarify you thoughts or assist where you are stuck.

Good luck in starting development. As a non-developer I started with being curious with /H in the command prompt and going from there.

Regards

Colleen

[Jelena]

Colleen Lee wrote:

A 15 minute SLA is quite impressive for a an online community that provides FREE advise. Good luck getting that as a paid customer on SAP Marketplace or anywhere else.

Aaah, now I'm really sad we don't get points for likes in comments anymore.

[Colleen]

Hi Jelena

True but I find it amusing my comment above is the most liked statement I've ever received and not related to my technical specialities.

I would have received 22 points (11 likes) for my comment above. I'm happy to forgo the points and just earn the respect of those who I value and appreciate in the community.

Colleen

[Former Member]

Hi Colleen,

#1

I think to start with it would be nice if we don't just go around labelling the other side as "ranting" or anything else. This is what Richard in the other thread told the mod:

"It took me a long time and a lot of effort to learn this...I'm not just going to give it away."

So it's not going to go anywhere like that.

#2

Looks like you just assume I'm against all moderation in the first place. I wanted to discuss the specific reasons for which the threads were deleted. Reasons like "do not link to saptechnical" which is not even against the ROE and for which the response was "not everything is in the ROE and moderation is subjective". How can something like which sites can be linked be subjective? And how can linking to ABAP tutorials on an ABAP forum be against the rules (the mod's rules in this case)? Isn't that just a part of finding and sharing ABAP knowledge?

regards,

Allwyn

[matt]

#1 Richard's suggestion that I'm deliberately withholding information, is entirely untrue and an iniquitous, almost libellous suggestion. Let me spell it out again:

I will not spoonfeed information and I will not answer questions that in my view are easily resolved with a little effort.

There are two reasons for this:

1. I think it harms an individual's learning process if they just get given the information they think they need. It will take them longer to be independent and an effective consultant.
2. I think it harms hard-working people who are willing to put effort in, if lazy people find their lazy behaviour rewarded.

#2 The ban on saptechnical is not "the mod's rule". It is a site-wide policy. The fact that it (or any other rule) isn't recorded in the RoE is utterly irrelevant. If someone posts a link to that site (or breaks any of the other "unwritten rules", their post is rejected and they're asked not to do it again. Why this should be a big deal, resulting in offence, is entirely beyond me.

It should be interpreted as "oh, by the way, please don't link to that site". Apparently some people interpret as "How dare you link to that site, you vile stinkard! Do it again, and we shall paint your house green and red, and plough up your lawn!".

It is entirely clear to me why moderation in its very nature is subjective. If you can't get your head around it, then just accept it as one of life's little mysteries.

[Colleen]

#1 I  am confused - how am I labelling and who is "the other side"? I didn't think SCN had side - points of views definitely. How does Richard's statement have anything to do with my comment?

Are you implying that I am accusing you or do you mean as a community we don't accuse. Again, I am finding your response to have a bit of a confrontational undertone. Again, I'm trying to put it down to written communication can be misunderstood compared to face to face when you don't have the additional cues of tone and body language.

If you think I have accused you of ranting I was purely quoting your words

#2. How do you draw such a conclusion? For your thread (and Richard's) I have commented to specifics   In Richard's case I saw the entire thread as I received the email notifications. In both cases I quoted the comments so answered with context. in doing this, members could correct me if I took a statement out of context. I am still wondering how my comments led you to assume that you are "against all moderation"

the RoE is explicit in SCN's position on copyright. The website is allegedly known to take SAP material without approval. Therefore, it's implied that linking to the site is copyright issue. Mathew Billingham has already commented above as to how that was meant to be interpreted - ie you didn't know that but now you do.

[former_member183424]

I hope you just need to read the The SCN Rules of Engagement | SCN carefully..

And do not blame moderators...

They are doing their job very clearly, that's because they are moderator..

SCN will not accept anything, which is against rules and engagement...

[Former Member]

hi,

Please understand my point. I am talking about the reasons given for deleting threads. I would like to know if a mod at least bothers to send threads for review.

I mean why is linking to saptechnical not allowed but many other sites when linked the threads are not deleted.

Also what sort of a reason is "it's covered in abap courses".

I am suggesting the mod names be displayed when a thread is deleted so everyone can judge the decision.

regards.

[JL23]

there is no such technical option to send threads for review.

If content gets a moderator alert, then it is in the moderation queue of all moderators in that space, one of  the moderators reviews the alert and takes a decision.

An approval or rejection of a moderation alert is a thing between the reporter, the moderator and you.  Why should   "everyone judge the decision"?

In the overview page of the forum you can find the names of the moderators, you can click the names and review how long they are already in SCN, you can check their reputation tab as well.

Do you want to question their experience in judging about basic questions or identifying unwanted content?

Do you expect a letter longer than any of your questions explaining why something was rejected?

Why do you expect them to change your content, wouldn't this be another reason for a rant?  How often shall this be done by a moderator? Just 1 rejection and it is usually learned.  Have you read all other dicussions today in the ABAP forum, your moderator probably did, thats probably the reason that there is no time to send long letters for each reason.

Just read this blog, understand it, and work as explained and you will not have to fear any attention of a moderator (except for answering your questions)

The rules are very clear about basic questions and that you have to search before asking, and looking at your screen shot I can see you got already several rejections. What actually did you learn from those rejections?