SAP Sampling schemes: SAP naming convention and initial values needed

[Martin_H]

1) Is there any document stating the full naming convention used and

2) also stating the values provided by SAP in client 000?

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1)

Within SPRO I can only find the following comment:

The SAP system uses the following nomenclature for the 'A'B'C' description in the sampling schemes:
'A' (description of norm)  : 1 = ISO 3951 / 2 = ISO 2859
'B' (description of method): 1 = s-method or single sample
'C' (description of level) : 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 = S-1 / 5 = S-2 / ...

C is clear, but for B there is no full list provided by SAP. Based on what I could find out by using QCCS and copying the values to our protoype client (unfortunately no access to client 000 is allowed within my company so I cannot directly check) I got the following schemes:

a) 111,112, 113, 116, 117 (ISO 3951)

b) 211 - 217 (ISO 2859-1)

c) 311-317 (ISO 2859 no valuation)

d) 252 (2859 multiple Level II)

This lets me at least get to the following assumptions for A:

1= ISO 3951

2= ISO 2859 attributive

3= ISO 2859 nonvaluated

This lets me at least get to the following assumptions for B:

1 = single sample

5 = multiple sample

--> what number is reserved for double?

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2)

It would help to know if the schemes above are complete, or if some are missing in my client 000.

[former_member42743]

I think you have already provided more information here than most people know about the sampling scheme.

All I can do is provied you with the list of sampling schemes I see in the system I have access to. These wre all provided by SAP in the ECC 6.0 system. No EHP.

111 ISO 3951 / level I

112 ISO 3951 / level II

113 ISO 3951 / level III

116 ISO 3951 / level S-3

117 ISO 3951 / level S-4

211 ANSI Z1.4 / Level I / Single

212 ANSI Z1.4 / Level II / Single

213 ANSI Z1.4 / Level III / Single

214 ANSI Z1.4 / Level S-1 / Single

215 ANSI Z1.4 / Level S-2 / Single

216 ANSI Z1.4 / Level S-3 / Single

217 ANSI Z1.4 / Level S-4 / Single

272 ANSI Z1.4 / Level II / Multiple

280 ANSI Z1.4 / Level II / Double

281 ANSI Z1.4 / Level S-1 / Double

282 ANSI Z1.4 / Level S-2 / Double

283 ANSI Z1.4 / Level S-3 / Double

284 ANSI Z1.4 / Level S-4 / Double

285 ANSI Z1.4 / Level I / Double

311 ISO 2859 / Level I / no valuation

312 ISO 2859 / Level II / no valuation

313 ISO 2859 / Level III / no valuation

314 ISO 2859 / Level S-1 / no valuation

315 ISO 2859 / Level S-2 / no valuation

316 ISO 2859 / Level S-3 / no valuation

317 ISO 2859 / Level S-4 / no valuation

So you might be missing a few.

FF

[Martin_H]

Thanks for you reply. This at least tells me that there is also predelivered entries existing for the double sampling plans (I would assume that ANSI Z 1.4 is equal to ISO 2859).

Considering your input this would result in:

This lets me at least get to the following assumptions for A:

1= ISO 3951

2= ISO 2859 attributive

3= ISO 2859 nonvaluated

This lets me at least get to the following assumptions for B:

1 = single sample

5 = multiple sample

7 = multiple sample (old, see below)

8 = double sample

-->As per note 611296 the 272 has been replaced by 252.

Seems to be also that SAP only delivers 1 multiple sampling plan.

But (based on you reply) also this shows some inconsistency in the Numbering of C, as

281 is double S1, but one would expect 284 for double S1... (as S1 has number 4).

[former_member42743]

I'll agree with everything you said!!!

I usually don't get too involved with the sampling schemes personally. Not being a statistician or Standards guru I focus on training my clients on how to use the sampling schemses the best I can. I always tell them it's up to them to understand the standards for their business and exactly what sampling requirements are required for them. They have to plan on having their own SAP sampling guru before my short time with them is over.

It sounds to me like you are much more familar with the various standards and schemes than I. I wouldn't worry about understanding what SAP uses as far as naming conventions. I have found that in places that use the sampling schemes, they typically only use 2-3 variations of them.

We will usually copy an existing SAP scheme to a Zxx sampling scheme and than have them modify that according to their needs and change the description to reflect what their plant people use every day. That way everyone knows that only Zxx schemes are usd in their business. That way the SAP delivered items remain untouched and we never have to worry about SAP delivering an update/correction/patch to a standard that maybe hasn't been yet approved internally

FF

[Martin_H]

We do also copy the schemes, but only if we adapt them. As normally the contracts are done based on the ISO norm, we use the SAP standard directly. In case the ISO changes we have to adapt immediately, so that is OK. Also, no one is allowed to modify the standard schemes.

Thanks for your input, maybe someone else will also contribute their schemes (someone with EHP would be interesting, just to see if some changes have been done there).

Martin

[former_member221025]

Dear Martin,

i am using EHP5; here is a list:

111 ISO 3951 / level I

112 ISO 3951 / level II

113 ISO 3951 / level III

116 ISO 3951 / level S-3

117 ISO 3951 / level S-4

211 ISO 2859-1 / level I

212 ISO 2859-1 / level II

213 ISO 2859-1 / level III

214 ISO 2859-1 / level S-1

215 ISO 2859-1 / level S-2

216 ISO 2859-1 / level S-3

217 ISO 2859-1 / level S-4

252 ISO 2859-1 / Level II / multiple

311 ISO 2859 / Level I / no valuation

312 ISO 2859 / Level II / no valuation

313 ISO 2859 / Level III / no valuation

314 ISO 2859 / Level S-1 / no valuation

315 ISO 2859 / Level S-2 / no valuation

316 ISO 2859 / Level S-3 / no valuation

317 ISO 2859 / Level S-4 / no valuation

411 ISO 3951-1:2008-03 / Level I

412 ISO 3951-1:2008-03 / Level II

413 ISO 3951-1:2008-03 / Level III

414 ISO 3951-1:2008-03 / Level S-1

415 ISO 3951-1:2008-03 / Level S-2

416 ISO 3951-1:2008-03 / Level S-3

417 ISO 3951-1:2008-03 / Level S-4

Regards,

amol

[former_member42743]

As normally the contracts are done based on the ISO norm, we use the SAP standard directly. In case the ISO changes we have to adapt immediately, so that is OK

Be careful in using the standard SAP schemes. Make sure you double check them against the published standad. I recently had a pharma firm show me that the standard as deliverd by SAP was incorrect with regard to the sampling tables. At least according to the written standard they were using. There were several quantities missing in the tables for normal/tightened/reduced inspections.

FF

[Martin_H]

This might be true, but you also have to know that you do not need to list all quantities specified in the ISO norm for each combination of inspection level, lot size and AQL. This is also reflected in the SAP setup of the ISO schemes.

Take e.g. scheme 214 (ISO 2859 Level S1) with AQL 10. One might think from looking at the norm that you would need to specify all lot sizes (meaning 8, 15, 25, 50, 90, ...up to 500000) and then maintain sample size, c1 and d1 values.

Looking at the ISO table more detailed you can see that only characters A,B,C,D are specified, resulting in a maximum of 4 different sample sizes (based on Table 2-A of the norm: A:2, B:3, C:5, D:8. Looking then at the value column for AQL 10 you can see that there is an arrow on A and B, resulting in 2 real values that can be returned:

- A,B,C: sample size 5

- 😧 sample size 8

Which is exactly what I can find in the SAP system.

Hope this helps you in understanding!

Regards

Martin

[former_member42743]

See.. that's why I tell the client they need to give me a sampling guru! I'm not about to tell a client how to go about their sampling normally. When we get into the weeds and get into this level of detail I have to rely on the business to tell me what they want/need.

As an outside consultant I might raise my eyebrows if they have no approach to sampling and suggest that they should have one. And you would be surprised at how many companies have absolutely no concept of sampling and how it can be used. Usually the defense contractors and pharma/medical firms are pretty much on top of this. Outside of those industries, the knowledge level usually drops fast.

But to go back to your last comment, I did see the arrows in their document and even taking those into account there were still some missing items. I'll have to try and see if i can find what was missing and give you the details.

FF

[Martin_H]

Hello Amolbook,

I just got a hint which confirms your settings: seems in EHP5 SAP has updated the schemes based on ISO 3951-1-2008, but this time not by modifying the existing schemes. Instead they created additional entries...which start with a "4". Not a very consistent approach, but...

See note 1419673. They also provide a report for loading these schemes in any system below EHP5.

Regards

Martin

[Martin_H]

To all interested: I had a call open at SAP to request the missing documentation/naming convention for sampling schemes. The result is not very satisfying: SAP is confirming that B: 5= multiple, but they do not want to tell which value has been designated for double sampling plans (or: they do not want to assign a value right now because they do currently not deliver double schemes. My argument that it would nevertheless be good to know this value in order not to assign it to other schemes has been ignored).

My last thoughts were: if B:5 is used for multiple plans (within ISO 2859, which is equal to 5 stages), I will assign B:2 = double for double sampling plans (2 stages) at least in my naming conventions:

A:

1=ISO 3951

2=ISO 2859 attributive

3=ISO 2859 nonvaluated

4=3951-1:2008

B:

1 = single sample

2 = double sample

5 = multiple sample

C:

1=I

2=II

3=III

4=S1

5=S2

6=S3

7=S4

Thanks for all contributions so far!

Martin