SAP on PostgreSQL

[abdulbasit]

Hi,

I did some search to check if I can install SAP products on PostgreSQL but didn't find anything valuable. I can see that SAP doesn't support this DB but is there any future plans for adding support or did anyone ever tried to install ?

Regards

Abdul.

[lbreddemann · Accepted solution]

You're right about this.

It's not supported and probably won't ever be.

Just like mySQL, Firebird, mSQL ... SAP did not port the NetWeaver stack to this platform.

Although SAP runs on many DBMS-platforms it barely uses any special features (not even primary key/foreign key constraints) certain functionality is overly important (locking, online backup, parallel session load behaviour...) for which the opensource DBMS often lack a good implementation.

regards,

Lars

[abdulbasit · Accepted solution]

Hi,

Thanks for the comments.

I'm not a PostgreSQL expert but as far as I know ( also I got feedback from friends who are expert on this area ) , most of the features you mentioned are exist in PostgreSQL. I think it is not fair to tell PostgreSQL lack a good implementation.

I know many enterprise level uses of PostgreSQL, that's why I'm thinking about to run SAP on this platform.

I'm open to any discussion about this topic. Maybe I'll try this experimentally. Any experience on this topic is highly appreciated.

Thanks.

Abdul.

[lbreddemann · Accepted solution]

Hmm... I didn't write that PostgreSQL lacks a good implementation of important features.

I just wanted to point out, that even the supported DBMS had a long way to go to refine and tune some of their basic functionality until they reached the maturity they present nowadays.

SInce you need to have a database interface library for every different DBMS you want to run NetWeaver on, somebody would have to provide this first, before one can think of installing a NetWeaver instance on PostgreSQL.

AFAIK there exist no such DBSL for PostgreSQL and there's no legal way to know how this internal API works (unless you're the developer of it), so I'd say: this is not something you can just try out.

By the way (and that really does interest me way beyond the technical stuff): what would be the benefit of supporting just another platform? What do you see in it?

regards,

Lars

[abdulbasit · Accepted solution]

Hi,

For the last question,

This is not just supporting another platform. I see very big enterprises around moving to PostgreSQL (mainly from Oracle). This shows that PostgreSQL have enough maturity. Wouldn't it be good to see SAP support on open-source DB ?

I know it is not possible to install directly but found this which may help us to see if it works or not :

http://www.enterprisedb.com/products-services-training/products/postgres-plus-advanced-server/advanc...

Will try and hopefully share the results soon.

Regards

Abdul.

[lbreddemann · Accepted solution]

Hello again.

Yes, PostgreSQL is pretty close to Oracle concerning the programming of it so that migrations can be quite forward.

But: the way you write that you see "big companies moving from Oracle to PostgreSQL" gives the wrong impression on this.

Most of these companies move away non-critical systems to save license fees.

For the heavy duty heart of business systems that require things like standby database, multi-node clustering, encryption of data and database communication and most important SLA bound support the usually don't take the open-source database.

Personally I don't see any advantage in having PostgreSQL as a supported platform.

Would it be easier to analyze and support than Oracle? Nope.

Would it be cheaper concerning license costs than MaxDB? Don't see that.

Would it bring any advantage to SAP customers from technological point of view? Which one?

See, currently SAP supports Oracle, MS SQL, Informix (running out....), DB2/4/6, MaxDB and Sybase ASE on all relevant OS/HW platforms. HANAs NewDB is just around the corner...

PostgreSQL really would be another DBMS and not necessarily one that would add any value.

SAP is definitvely not blindfolded concerning open source technology.

MaxDB has been a OS project for a long time.

But still it has to be beneficial to accept license terms and to invest into development.

best regards,

Lars

[abdulbasit · Accepted solution]

Hi,

I'm not a database expert so I can't discuss the technical details with you. However, discussion is going to somewhere else about Open Source technology.

I don't agree with your opinions about open source technology. Do you think all Linux, PHP, PostgreSQL etc. users are using this technologies only on non-critical systems to save license fees ? It is something more than saving license fees. And why SAP is wasting its time and resources to concern about Linux ?

Regards

Abdul.

[lbreddemann · Accepted solution]

Abdul.

don't put more into my comments than there really is.

I didn't write that all OS software is not ready for heavy production use.

I just pointed out that the Wall-Marts, the BPs, the Amazons, the Nestles, the Saudi-Aramcos, the Tatas etc. of this world run their business crtitical systems on the major DBMS, on the major OS, on the major Hardware.

If you're that happy with OS software that's totally fine with me.

I like it as well.

Nevertheless: I don't see additional benefit for anybody that would rectifiy to have another DBMS supported.

BTW - SAP software is not database agnostic.

In fact it relies heavily on the specific DBMS optimizations build by every vendor (sometimes specifically for us ;-).

So, to really exploit a new platform properly, there is quite some work to do.

And this work needs to pay out - otherwise nobody will do it.

regards,

Lars

[abdulbasit · Accepted solution]

Hi,

I appreciate your comments and thank you for explaining me the complexity of the supporting any new database technology on SAP side. I've already got my answer on this topic although I still expect more from SAP in spite of complexity you already explained.

"SAP is definitely not blindfolded concerning open source technology."

I didn't put anything more into your comments. This words made me think that you are talking generally about Open Source technology rather than PostgreSQL. Anyway, if you didn't mean that forget about my all comments which takes this conversation to general Open Source discussion.

Thanks again for your clarifications.

Best Regards

Abdul.

[hannes_kuehnemund · Accepted solution]

And why SAP is wasting its time and resources to concern about Linux ? 

well, because thousands of customers asked for it and to be honest I haven't seen any customer so far asking for PosgreSQL so far.

BR, Hannes

SAP LinuxLab

[Former Member · Accepted solution]

Hi,

I'd like to see PostgreSQL support.

Also a few points from previous emails;

PostgreSQL supports many of the features highlighted as "missing" from open source databases. More than MySQL which you have chosen to support.

PostgreSQL also has a larger user base than several other databases you support.

Since Linux is a supported platform, supporting PostrgreSQL would mean that Linux as a platform would have pretty much full open source database support, since both major databases (mysql/postgresql) would be supported.

As for no customers asking for it, most existing customers will already probably have working systems on current databases, so it will be not be top of their list of questions. However, there may be a number of potential customer with existing PostrgreSQL preferences that might be interested..

[markus_doehr2 · Accepted solution]

> PostgreSQL supports many of the features highlighted as "missing" from open source databases. More than MySQL which you have chosen to support.

MySQL is not supported as underlying database. There were discussions in the past and there are "leftovers" in a few tools (R3ldctl) but it's not supported.

The question is: who could be made responsible in case there is a problem with the database? There has to be someone to take care of support calls. There would need to be done ABAP modifications/adaptions to support the database, tools around the database would need to be developed etc. For BW systems there are OLAP functionalties necessary which are (as far as I know) only developed externally as extension for the system.

So it's not really just developing an interface to connect ABAP to the database but rather a BigThing(TM) supporting another database. SAP is btw just in that process with Sybase ASE, the porting is still onging, there are almost daily updates for the ABAP backend in notes available.

Markus

[JanStallkamp · Accepted solution]

Hi,
> 
> I'd like to see PostgreSQL support.

Why? What are you expecting from PostgreSQL that other databases cannot offer you?

> Also a few points from previous emails;
> 
> PostgreSQL supports many of the features highlighted as "missing" from open source databases. More than MySQL which you have chosen to support.

As Markus said: MySQL is not supported by SAP. The set of features SAP is expecting from a database is not the stuff you read a lot about when databases are compared in other scenarios. And if the SAP NetWeaver needs a set of features it does not help if a database supports more of them than others. It has to support all of them or it's not going to be supported.

> PostgreSQL also has a larger user base than several other databases you support. 

It's very hard to compare user bases here. Not every DB user is a potential SAP customer. I use PostgreSQL on my web server. But I'm most likely not going to buy SAP licenses to run my private homepage. On the other hand a typical IBM DB2 for z/OS installation is 'a little bit larger' than a typical PostgreSQL database.

> Since Linux is a supported platform, supporting PostrgreSQL would mean that Linux as a platform would have pretty much full open source database support, since both major databases (mysql/postgresql) would be supported.
> 
> As for no customers asking for it, most existing customers will already probably have working systems on current databases, so it will be not be top of their list of questions. However, there may be a number of potential customer with existing PostrgreSQL preferences that might be interested..

Supporting a database is a long term project (once supported it has to be supported for several years) and it requires a lot of work. It's not just providing a new database interface layer and that's all (and even that is not easy). You need to provide monitoring tools, adopt the installation tools, provide SAP upgrade tools specific for the database...

Best regards,

Jan

[JanStallkamp · Accepted solution]

> So it's not really just developing an interface to connect ABAP to the database but rather a BigThing(TM) supporting another database. SAP is btw just in that process with Sybase ASE, the porting is still onging, there are almost daily updates for the ABAP backend in notes available. 

I knew that releasing SAP Notes on a new component would get some attention in the forums

But the part of the porting project for ASE that you see in SAP Notes is only a very, very small part of the work that is going on at the moment.

Best regards,

Jan

(SAP on Sybase ASE platform team)

[markus_doehr2 · Accepted solution]

> I knew that releasing SAP Notes on a new component would get some attention in the forums

Well - if you open (intentionally) BC-DB-SYB and someone as me browsing daily for new notes on BC-DB* then yes

> But the part of the porting project for ASE that you see in SAP Notes is only a very, very small part of the work that is going on at the moment.

I can imagine, I even think that's the "end of the tunnel" - like DB13 & Co. being supported.

I would be VERY interested in how the sybase licensing is done, speaking of customers, who "suffer" under the almost-standstill development of SAPs other database product...

Markus