How brillaint are SAP developers and desginers

[Former Member]

Now this is something that i have been wanting to know since long.

SAP comes out with new versions while many experts are still figuring out the full "functional powers" of older versions. some as old as 4.6B.

How could SAP AG go about coding things so fast, much much faster than what the market asks for and implementors care for (to learn, unlearn). Can the moderator throw some insider insights into it if he does not mind.

My best guess is a developer working for SAP AG must be 100 times faster in his conginitive abilities than we lesser mortals who try and figure out how 2+2 makes 4 in SAP in 101 days after reading 99 pages of documentation.

How does SAP come to believe that the practioners and consultants in the market would have learnt it sufficiently well to advocate and sell the software to clients. Well the training guides are just a good introduction to SAP nothing more than that.

I still wonder on these basic stuff even after 3 years in SAP consulting I was not a dumb at school and college. beleieve me. I have learnt calculus in less than a month and topped too.

Does SAP have a 1 day training class on "Secrets to learning SAP faster than Peter".. or something like that i might be missing.

Well guys enough of bashing. but i love SAP and i am serious. its just that i want to lead a normal life as a SAP professional.

[Former Member]

hi there,

after reading your(loknath's) post , first thing that reminds me- is of an old proverb but very pragmatic one...

that - "grass always looks greener on other side."

But, I believe every field is as difficult as any other competency.

But, one thing that can't be dinied is Change ... every one requires a change , 'cause monotonous is very filthy.and could become deadly after some point of time if we dont take it seriously.

But we s'ld try take measure in Style... style in the sense that it pays off in your own internal growth. Growth which result in internal satisfaction. satisfaction from our own work... satisfaction from our own existence...

Thinkj over IT...

Till then bye.

Edited by: Roopal Kapoor on Oct 20, 2008 11:07 AM

[Former Member]

Thanks Roopal,

Nice words of motivation. I ve been thinking and thinking and thinking and sinkin over it for quite some time

[Former Member]

Hi Locknath

In many respects you are right, but I have a couple of thoughts to the contrary. If we were completely honest, the base functionality of SAP modules - FI, HR, SD etc - haven't changed that much since 3.0F etc. But there are other module - SRM, and FS-CD - which have evolved due to outside forces in business practice and IT over time. It is these modules which drive a lot of change as we learn to make better mousetraps.

On the other hand, our focus also changes over time. A couple of years ago I worked on a global implementation where the functionality had to consider tax and business travel rule for over fifty countries while still maintaining the overarching business rules and processes which were set centrally by the Company's executive. Here some of the changes within modules became more evident as my focus changed from on-country-one-process to many coutries and process permutations. The standard product actually maintained quite a close fit to both even though some of the foibles of various countries legislative and reporting requirements became a little arcane. And when we talked to the SAP product experts, I discovered a depth of knowledge of their area which far outreached my own. Then two things occurred to me:

a) The knowledge at SAP is deep, but not incredibly broad. These people and developers have the luxuray of concentrating on ONE aspect of ONE module. Move outside of that range and their knowledge drops off; and

b) If one of us had the luxury of such a close focus, then we would have many more ideas around our chosen area then a normal developer who has to spread their abilities over a wider field.

I would therefore suggest we are comparing apples with oranges and be quite prepared to live with it.

Regards

Gareth

[Former Member]

Thanks Gareth,

Your response was the closet to what i wanted to hear :-). My infallibale conslusion is it is easier to work in SAP AG on a module/solution development rather than "discovering" it as a consultant. The sad part is, as consultants we are supposed to understand and deliver a lot lot more than what we are paid for and taught and that makes the job sometimes very dicy. e.g as a fulfillment consultant I should know all application components functionalities that realize the fulfillment scenarios in atleast 4-5 industry veriticals and this experience of gathering the knowledge sometimes becomes quite painful. The underlying word is "discovery". We discover and then we advocate and this is quite unlike other professions. Anyway after spending 2 odd years and doing an ok ok job as SAP consultant, I still somtimes wonder, what will SAP make me 10 years down the line. Would i still be relevant. Would I still be discovering. :-). There is absolutely no doubt that SAP has created something next to what God only could have helped with, were SAP not available but 50% of the SAP knowledge and the thoughts and the genius that went into making it seems to become stale by the time we get to lay our hands on it and then we jump over to some new version and that's what i feel bad about, not able to enough justice to it

I don'e see answers from many people. Was this an embarassing question to beign with :-). I purportedly posted this question to have opinions of senior consultants

Thanks Gareth,

Regards,

Loknath

[Former Member]

Remember the reason SAP is successful (well apart from the first to get a three tier application out into the field when everybody was downsizing onto unix boxes) - it has the Process Orientated BAPIs at it's disposal

All the ABAP dynpro code is just to validate that function module - ie Create Customer, Update Sales Order etc

These standard function modules have been around for years and content providers link them together to provide industry solutions

There are only so many ways to post a finance journal or process a sales order!

The user experience and technology sure can change over time but it still comes down to the process - and how those processes are linked together can give competitive advantage

However - remmber why us SAP consultants were paid so much in the beginning - we are not really IT consultants - most of us non ABAP and BASIS cuys came from the process side. We were sales managers, logisitics managers, warehouse managers and finance managers even before we touched a computer.

SAP is a tool - the process is still and always will be king.

[andreas_mann3]

true words, Gareth

...

we were completely honest, the base functionality of SAP modules - FI, HR, SD etc - haven't changed that much since 3.0F etc....

But all things become indistinctly - for developers and more than everything else for the user.

But I think that sometimes we put the clock back to simplicity, decentralization and de-globalization

kind regards

Andreas

[markus_doehr2]

But I think that sometimes we put the clock back to simplicity, decentralization and de-globalization

(IT-)History repeats - it´s like a normal probability curve.

In the "early days" of IT we had huge hosts, mainframes, everything was running on one system, then the client/server era started and applications became distributed (speaking of the NewDimension thing). After that, one could see a centralization again (such as the retrofit of all industry solutions back to the ERP or virtualizing hosts on one big system instead of having dozens of separate boxes around).

Markus

[markus_doehr2]

Out of my experience most consultants for new products learn solely at the customers site.

They may have visited classes/courses and they may have the necessary business background knowledge, but in the last decade there was only one consultant who was able to combine his knowledge and our requirements to the system without doing things like "let´s put an X here and try again" in SPRO.

This is especially true for the new products (cprojects 4.5, ENH3/EHP3 for ERP etc.) where most of the consultants were sitting next to us with a printout of help.sap.com digging together with us step-by-step through the docs. Don´t get me wrong, this is not wrong by definition but I/we expect a bit more.

However, I can understand your point too - you have practically no chance to keep up with the development but using IDES system - which is ok - but IDES is not comparable to any customer system.

I´m with you - with todays complexity and landscapes it´s impossible to keep up, depending on what scenario is to be implemented it´s a big try-and-error game; many consultants have compared to the customers the advantage, that they know someone who they can ask.

And there is the "old rule": Every developer writes 7 - 9 lines of good code each day only

Markus

[Former Member]

Markus,

I am glad that such a question was understood by an SAP mentor quickly in matter of seconds. This is an obvious question. While "I don't want to sound ignorant" is what drives this whole consulting business, but with SAP, a software application, unlike business consulting, there are only 2 things that can happen.

- A business scenario X is possible with entire domain of STANDARD SAP application components and technology

- It is NOT possible in standard. A development/enhnacement/upgrade is required.

So my next concern is

- Are we writing/changing a program often OBLIVIOUS of the existence of standard way of doing it in SAP with standard configuration and current settings, costing 10's of thousands of dollars to customers

-If we are oblivious then who's the GOD. Who would say with a GUARANTEE, at the tip of fingers that a scenario/requirment X is possible or NOT possible.

Generally, the best of SAP consultants EXIST only for a particular business solution or 2 at max (past was worse with modules), e.g customer order fulfillment and outbound processes using ECC SD, SCM GATP, TM, TPVS, and CRM (I can gurantee such people would count less than 10 today ww). Given such a case what is the sanctity of consultant's (what we call subject matter expert who responds to client request for proposals and such) advice to a customer on a particular requirement that might need all these 3 applications. An SAP consultant end of the day is supposed to only talk nuts and bolts of business with client. Client knows and had been there done that enough high level strategy and he does not need an ALTERNATE adivce that might make the client doubt our compentices (this is the case most often when client says Such a simple scenario is not possible is such a expensive ultra large software ! not jkoing this is the way top guys who buy the software talk).

Normally in a business context, e.g as managers and functional experts, analysts are not limited to what SAP can or cannot do. So he goes about finding alterative means of addressing such a requirement in a "clear procedural" way that may be done with some tweaking of arhaic developement langauage and feudal IT systems but still, he KNOWS what he wants, so he GETS it right precisely to the dot. (this of course if he is desperate)

While I do understand the limitations of an individual human beings, but at the same time, if we consider this as matter ot right to bill M consultants for N months to configure and test a customer order fulfillment scenarios, then this is criminal. Usually customers bear such costs not because they are iditos but because they want peace of mind. Some automated way of doing things. Given this, the only NATURAL PROGESSION of a SAP professional should be to learn as much as possible on all the application areas that are in unison and can address a requirement fully. Too many cooks spoil the broth applies here too. ONLY ONE person should do this and complete this in couple of months and such demands are not uncommon especially with SME type clients.

Concluding this, I see SAP AG make very limited efforts to actually HELP CREATE such quality consultants. In fact with all the knowledge resoucres like help.sap.com, solution details ppts, service.sap.com, student and participant guides, bootcamps, conferecces, building blocks, best pratice documents, SAP insiders and such,, it is illogical to expect that someone can even keep pace with it. But the apprehensions that remain in such an ecosystem is "I am missing something that is imporant" and he still cant do anything about it. So the only way to explore SAP fully is to do Phd research in TUM.

A good SAP consultant is to good reputation of SAP and with whatever i see around me and whatever i read of SAP this does not come out.

Coming to the customers pain areas, I still think that no one is actually aware about what SAP's vision for a solutions/applicaiton is. The documents are all there but there's no SIMPLE CLEAR CHANNEL of communication (and language in layman terms) to the clients as to what they should be looking forward to in the future. As consultants we get to hijack such stuff with some extra privileges and time but even for us, it becomes greek and latin soon. Its at best what i call a Volatile Experience and learning by intimidation

Anyway I would like to see this discussion with mutiple perspectives from multiple people including the moderators from SAP AG. It would be really good to see people speak their heart out as most often we are as serious about our careers as SAP consultant as much as SAP is concenred about its products.

Regards,

Loknath

[markus_doehr2]

-If we are oblivious then who's the GOD. Who would say with a GUARANTEE, at the tip of fingers that a scenario/requirment X is possible or NOT possible.

I seriously doubt, that there exists such a person. I think the only possible way of getting a guarantee would be: Get all developers of that specific area at one table and discuss the requirement.

Generally, the best of SAP consultants EXIST only for a particular business solution or 2 at max (past was worse with modules), e.g customer order fulfillment and outbound processes using ECC SD, SCM GATP, TM, TPVS, and CRM (I can gurantee such people would count less than 10 today ww).

We are using functionality out of (former) IS-BEV although we are a manufacturing company and we have nothing to do with beverage. A consultant came up with the idea for a special bonus requirement in our SD. If that consultant didn´t know that it was existing, we would have needed to implement/program it ourselves (or get a developer do it for us). The consultant was involved "years ago" in a project and he had some slight clue that it may be possible to use. So experience was the key.

Concluding this, I see SAP AG make very limited efforts to actually HELP CREATE such quality consultants.

I just think, that the times of the "SD-consultants" and "MM-consultants" are coming to an end. Those "legacy" applications are well understood, well documented and the knowledge is widely spread. I think the requirements are different today. You either have to have the "horizontal" scope, a surface knowledge about many many components/applications or the "vertical" scope, being a total expert in a specific area. I would disgress from trying to be both of them

Its at best what i call a Volatile Experience and learning by intimidation

Harsh words - but somewhat true.

Markus