Windows Server 2008 support

[andreurban_blumberg]

Windows Server 2008 has been released in general availabiltiy to the market in Feb 2008.

Still, SAP has no roadmap to support Windows Server 2008. SAP Note 1054740 confirms that there is no technical problem but SAP is waiting for Sun to support JDK 1.4.2.

I would be interested to understand why SAP does not support at least ABAP stack on Windows 2008 and when SAP intends to come up with at least a plan as to when NetWeaver 7.0 SR3 (and higher) platform will be fully supported on Windows 2008.

Regards,

Andre.

[Former Member]

Hi, I Would be interested to install SAP BPC with SQL SERVER 2005 in two Servers with Windows 2008 Server, is this posible in 64 and 32 bits Windows 2008 server versions ?

Thank you.

Oscar.

[Former Member]

Hi,

If you had read the information given by Andre just above, you would have seen that only Windows 2008 64bit is supported.

Regards,

Olivier

[andreurban_blumberg]

Some more info here

[http://blogs.msdn.com/saponsqlserver/archive/2009/01/28/sap-declares-support-for-sql-server-2008-and-windows-server-2008.aspx|http://blogs.msdn.com/saponsqlserver/archive/2009/01/28/sap-declares-support-for-sql-server-2008-and-windows-server-2008.aspx]

Andre.

[Former Member]

Hi,

It's funny to see that Microsoft blames SUN publicly for the delay on JVM 1.4.2 on windows 2008 support.

They don't tell that SAP Netweaver need an obsolete JVM...

Olivier

[markus_doehr2]

It's funny to see that Microsoft blames SUN publicly for the delay on JVM 1.4.2 on windows 2008 support.

Indeed interesting

That´s also (one) a reason why Oracle is not yet supported, the Orainst needed Java that Oracle deliveres with the 10.2.0.1 installation kit does not run on Windows 2008....

Markus

[andreurban_blumberg]

Perhaps the reason is that Sun has been far too greedy and asking for a bit too much tea money from SAP for the downport?

Certainly .Net vs Java couldn't possibly have to do anything with it, would it ....

[markus_doehr2]

Perhaps the reason is that Sun has been far too greedy and asking for a bit too much tea money from SAP for the downport?

I worked technically before, it´s a matter of "support in case of problems. Sun has the sources. For Java 5.0 this is different, here SAP has "extended" the standard JVM to enable better supportability.

SAP was in a big dilemma here. On one side they can´t easily switch to Java 5 (or Java 6), this would put a too high risk on already productive installations changing the whole underlying basis, on the other side they can´t ignore, that Windows 2008 is out, since the installed base on Windows is > 50 %.

Certainly .Net vs Java couldn't possibly have to do anything with it, would it ....

That would be cynical, wouldn´t it?

Markus

[andreurban_blumberg]

>> SAP was in a big dilemma

I would strongy suggest SAP still is in a big dilemma since I have yet to see how they will fix this issue once and for all. Windows Server 2008 R2 will be out sometime this year, and it will include Hyper-V Live Migration ... a lot of SAP customers will be interested in R2.

How long will it take SAP to support it?

How long will it take SAP in future to support a new OS based on their "own" JVM with NetWeaver 7.1+?

Many open questions ... and few "lessons learned".

[markus_doehr2]

How long will it take SAP to support it?

I believe that for SQL Server tests are undergoing already, for the other databases... well... here the vendors of those need to start "supporting" it again...

How long will it take SAP in future to support a new OS based on their "own" JVM with NetWeaver 7.1+?

I wonder why all that is so complicate at all Microsoft claims compatibility but apparently there are still so many changes underneath that most software needs to be explicitly adapted/ported.

Other OS vendors don´t have those problems - at least not to that extent.

If SUN releases a new OS release (e. g. Solaris 10) the old software still runs. Same is true for HP-UX (with 11.31) or AIX (with 6.1). Even more "exotic" OS´es (System i/OS400) are supported much quicker.

Many open questions ... and few "lessons learned"

....again...

Markus

[andreurban_blumberg]

SAP finally updated the PAM info (after chasing them a few times indicating their inconsistent documentation across PAM web page, PAM slides and OSS notes).

The NetWeaver 7.0 PAM slides now show full support for Windows 2008 and SQL 2008. Details on Service Marketplace service.sap.com/pam.

Also see related info here [http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/feb09/02-05MSSAPPR.mspx. |http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2009/feb09/02-05MSSAPPR.mspx. ]

Andre.

[andreurban_blumberg]

So Oracle buys Sun and gets control over Java ... that will be interesting times ahead.

What will SAP do to prevent the above issue from re-occurring?

[markus_doehr2]

> So Oracle buys Sun and gets control over Java ... that will be interesting times ahead.

I totally agree.

> What will SAP do to prevent the above issue from re-occurring?

That is indeed an interesting question.

All those "issues" are more or less political, I'm not sure anybody can say as of now what that merge will mean for Java and/or for Sun customers in general, despite what Larry and Jonathan are publishing in their press announcements. We can all hope the best

Markus

[Former Member]

>What will SAP do to prevent the above issue from re-occurring?

Back to Abap stack only ?

I don't beleive it at all but that would be so funny !

Olivier

[Former Member]

Thank you Warren!

It's nice to hear I'm not the only one who thinks JAVA is a disaster. I tried using the JAVA stack for the Solution Manger system (another thing SAP has rammed down our throats) and found it crashed continually until I just gave up on it.

Michael

[andreurban_blumberg]

Bumping ...

Hi everyone ... just trying to get an update from everyone whether you had any news on support of Windows Server 2008 (which came out in Feb '08 ...) by SAP in the meantime

Thanks,

Andre.

[Former Member]

Hi,

SAP silence on the subject is very loud....

It seems though that SAP is aware of the Java nightmare problem because they had an inquiry on customer satisfaction on Java products.

I filled the questionnaire and my answers showed so much "satisfaction" that I was contacted by a product manager who wanted to interview me.

The only problem was that the interview had to be done in Las Vegas and as I am based in Europe, they would not provide me with an airline ticket...

More people should express their feelings about the SAP java big mistake.

Too much people in the basis community tell me : yes it's crap but it's good for me because it gives me a lot of work. I can't agree on this opinion ! I have enough interesting work, not to loose so much time on J2EE problems

Regards,

Olivier

[markus_doehr2]

I filled the questionnaire and my answers showed so much "satisfaction" that I was contacted by a product manager who wanted to interview me.

We had this interview here (in Germany) - the PM and a developer took serveral hours to listen to us, hear our problems and give suggestions what could be done as of now and what will most likely be done in the future.

Finally we saw a "preview" of the new Netweaver version and what it´s all about. Looks promising.

Too much people in the basis community tell me : yes it's crap but it's good for me because it gives me a lot of work.

It´s true - even support people @ SAP say that "that´s what were are there..".

Well.. the discussion "to Java" or "not to Java" is pointless - it will stay. sigh

Markus

[Former Member]

Hi Markus,

>Well.. the discussion "to Java" or "not to Java" is pointless - it will stay. sigh

Of course, you are right. I'm not naive that much but i think that we, as SAP customers, must express our feelings if we want to get inprovements.

The preview you saw seems interesting !

Regards,

Olivier

[markus_doehr2]

> >Well.. the discussion "to Java" or "not to Java" is pointless - it will stay. sigh

>

> Of course, you are right. I'm not naive that much but i think that we, as SAP customers, must express our feelings if we want to get inprovements.

There will be - but the general "mess" will stay - dozens if not hundred of different components, blackboxed together.

> The preview you saw seems interesting !

Yes - definitely. One will be able to see e. g. dependencies between applications (to answer questions such as "Are my portal and all necessary dependent services/applications running?") and things like that.

However, this is future - Netweaver 7.2x (or above), in a year or two maybe. Until then we need to live with it (or abandon it).

Markus

[andreurban_blumberg]

Some updates on this seemingly endless saga.

Received the following from SAP (without confidentiality classification hence sharing here):

u2022 ERP 6.0 (based on NW 7.0 SR3) ABAP stack and Java stack have been successfully pre-tested on Windows 2008.

u2022 We are confident to be able to hand over a supported combination of ERP 6.0 with SUN JDK 1.4.2x on Windows Server 2008 in Q1/Q2, including full support for the required JDK 1.4.2

u2022 After SUNu2019s official support announcement of JDK 1.4.2 on Windows 2008 you will immediately get information about which JDK version is to be used to run a fully supported release combination

u2022 You will get full support for MS SQL Server 2008 from SAP and Microsoft although it is not yet mentioned in our PAM

u2022 BI 7.0 is based on NW 7.0 SR3 which means that this solution is also supported in the same way as your ERP 6.0

u2022 You could already start with the system landscape deployment and setup u2013 knowing that there is no official JDK support yet.

Whilst this appears to be a step in the right direction, the process remains very slow and lacks clarity, e.g.

- what is the support / SLA scope, e.g. if customers find bugs or other problems, how quickly will they get resolved given that Sun has de-supported 1.4.2 already

- when will SQL 2008 support be updated in the PAM?

- what does SAP do to avoid the problem from happening again in future (given this is already the second time SAP has this issue, first time being the much delayed support of the x64 edition of Windows Server 2003

Keen to understand what other members of the community have seen / heard in the meantime.

Regards,

Andre.

[andreurban_blumberg]

OK some more updates. It seems in due course Sun received now enough money from SAP to keep the old Java 1.4 dinosaur alive for a few years and SAP finally supports Windows Server 2008 and SQL Server 2008 for NetWeaver 7.0 SP3+.

See here:

The PAM documentation is not updated yet but that hopefully doesn't take quite as long as the certification did ...

The question remains what will SAP do to prevent this issue from happening for a 3rd time ... Windows Server 2008 R2 is expected towards the end of this / early next year and we may be looking at a repeat perhaps?

[Former Member]

Andre, many thanks for your point, we are about to install some PI servers and this helps a lot

Again thank you

[Former Member]

Andre,

Thanks for keeping us updated : this is really usefull information !

Regards,

Olivier

[Former Member]

HI andre,

SAP Support for Windows Server 2008 and SQL Server 2008

Microsoft will release a new Windows Server product and a new SQL Server release next year. Windows Server 2008 (formerly u2018Longhornu2019) should release in Q1 of CY2008 whereas SQL Server 2008 (formerly u2018Katmaiu2019) will be released in summer CY2008. As usual pre-released versions of Windows Server 2008 and SQL Server 2008 already are used intensively in Microsoftu2019s IT running productive systems in Microsoftu2019s effort of testing their own products under rigid production conditions before releasing products. Like with all SQL Server releases in the last 10 years, Microsoft IT already runs part of their SAP landscape on CTP builds of SQL Server 2008 with the plan to move the productive 4.5TB SAP ERP system to SQL Server 2008 CTP6 in February 2008 to the latest available CTP of SQL Server 2008. Workload tests conducted so far by Microsoft IT on SQL server 2008 look extremely positive at this point in time in terms of performance and reliability.

SAP plans to support the new Windows Server 2008 and SQL Server 2008 releases as soon as possible to the release of the products by Microsoft. SAP already runs a Beta Program for Windows Server 2008 which is described in detail in SAP OSS note #1054740. With this Beta program SAP allows every customer running on SQL Server 2005 and x64 the usage of Windows Server 2008 Beta3 on their Test and Development systems. The OSS note mentioned above describes exact steps and changed software components needed by SAP.

The Windows Server 2008 support by SAP so far is planned for SAP products based on Netweaver 7.0 (formerly Netweaver 2004S) and later releases and 64Bit only. The same is true for SQL Server 2008. SAP plans to support 64Bit releases only in combination with Netweaver 7.0 based products or later releases of SAP software. It is not planned by SAP to support 32Bit SQL Server 2008 versions. At this point in time it is not planned to support older SAP releases with SQL Server 2008. As with Windows Server 2008, SAP and Microsoft are planning to setup a Beta Program in February 2008 based on CTP6 of SQL Server 2008. As with the Windows Beta program, the SQL Server 2008 centric program will allow customers to leverage SQL Server 2008 CTP6 and later pre-releases on their Test, Development and Sandbox systems.

No question remaining hopefully, except the one. What is a CTP? Introducing a new system how to develop future releases of SQL Server, we (SQL Server Development) decided to move away from releasing 2 or 3 Beta releases publically, but to release so called Community Technical Previews on a more frequent manner. Thanks to the new engineering system we applied in SQL Server Development these technical previews provide full developed new features for early testing and trial already. The latest CTP can be found on

i hope the above info will be usefull

thanks

karthik

[andreurban_blumberg]

Hi Karthik,

thanks for your note but this information is probably 1 year old.

Windows 2008 has been released in Feb 2008 and SQL 2008 has been generally released earlier this month. So both products are available.

My question is: when will Windows 2008 be supported and why is it that SAP is taking so long to come up with a plan to support it, in particular given that Windows is by far the most frequently used operating system for SAP.

Andre.

Edited by: Andre Blumberg on Aug 28, 2008 10:00 AM

[markus_doehr2]

The reason is in the note you found They can´t release the full Netweaver stack without being backed by Sun for the JDK. There is no "ABAP only" release, SAP always releases full stacks only.

Markus

[andreurban_blumberg]

So this raises the questions then why SAP is so re-active in getting the issue resolved.

Why is SAP still sitting on JDK1.42 which is out of support for ages? SAP is asking it's customers to stay on current releases ...

Why did SAP not learn from the exact same issue 3 years ago moving from 32-bit to 64-bit Windows support (x64) when also Sun wouldn't want to support JDK1.42 initially?

What is SAP's plan to address this issue once and for all for NW 7.0 based applications?

[Former Member]

Hi,

It seems to me that SUN and SAP are not very good friends...

Yes, it's a mess to download the right SUN JDK 1.42 for x86 64 bit.

There is no official link for it : you have to be "creative"...

I guess SAP's plan to address this issue is called SAP JVM ! But it will be only for Netweaver 7.1 or even later...

Regards,

Olivier

[markus_doehr2]

> There is no official link for it : you have to be "creative"...

Well - there is no official 1.4.2 for x64 (for Itanium there is). And "note 941595 - Download J2SE 1.4.2 for the x64 platform" describes where to download it

> I guess SAP's plan to address this issue is called SAP JVM ! But it will be only for Netweaver 7.1 or even later...

SAP VM 5.0 is based on J2EE 5.0 with "SAP-extensions".

Markus

[andreurban_blumberg]

SAP JVM 5 is too little too late. It doesn't address NW 7.0 but only 7.1.

There is no business application on 7.1 of significance.

ECC 6.0, the "go to release" is on 7.0 and you are not able to upgrade the underlying NW to 7.1. It is supported mainstream until 2013 or 2014, so this means if you replace your servers in the next few years you have to use Win 2003 ... a 5+ year old operating system that faces de-support much earlier than ECC 6.0.

What a mess ...

Edited by: Andre Blumberg on Aug 28, 2008 5:03 PM

[markus_doehr2]

> SAP JVM 5 is too little too late. It doesn't address NW 7.0 but only 7.1.

> There is no business application on 7.1 of significance.

as of now - yes. The reason why they can't "simply jump" to Java 5 or higher with current software is the fact, that the difference between 1.4.2 for the J2EE server is pretty HUGE, many parts of the application would need to be rewritten to fit the new standard. The difference between the "Portal" 6.20 (with J2EE 1.3.x) and 1.4.2 was smaller and so feasible.

> ECC 6.0, the "go to release" is on 7.0 and you are not able to upgrade the underlying NW to 7.1. It is supported mainstream until 2013 or 2014, so this means if you replace your servers in the next few years you have to use Win 2003 ... a 5+ year old operating system that faces de-support much earlier than ECC 6.0.

>

> What a mess ...

With todays knowledge you're right - yes.

I'm sure there are plans for those applications (EP, BI-Java etc.) to be supported to be either installed on SAPs VM (5.0) or getting an agreement with Sun to support the current JDK on Windows 2008 also, especially because a majority of SAP customers use Windows as their platform.

But: you always have the choice of switching the OS reusing the same hardware (there are two alternatives) )

Markus

[Former Member]

Hi,

>Well - there is no official 1.4.2 for x64 (for Itanium there is). And "note 941595 - Download J2SE 1.4.2 >for the x64 platform" describes where to download it

Nope ! With the link given in this note you can only get releases 1.4.2_17 or 1.4.2_18.

If you want a stable system you need Sun JDK 1.4.2_13 and there in no offcial link for it.

I find extraordinary that SAP bases official products on NON official SUN JDK. This is not very serious.

Regards,

Olivier

[Former Member]

>

> Hi,
> 
> It seems to me that SUN and SAP are not very good friends...
> Regards,
> Olivier

Sun <-> SAP <-> Microsoft

Hurts being in middle of a war zone.

[markus_doehr2]

you forgot Oracle )

Markus

[andreurban_blumberg]

OK so I still didn't get an answer why SAP failed to put together a proper Java support roadmap but instead decided to stick to a very old version that caused the very same issues 3 years ago. And what is SAP going to do about it to resolve the issue once and for all?

It is rather interesting (embarrassing?) that SAP is launching Enterprise Support now in which 3rd party support is promised, yet on the other hand basic operating system support is not available. What is going on?

Edited by: Andre Blumberg on Aug 29, 2008 10:47 PM

[markus_doehr2]

I see this a bit more antiseptic: I wouldn´t blame SAP in the first place, SAP relies on 3rd party software here (= Java/Sun).

It´s the same with Oracle, you simply can´t run a 4.6c on Oracle 10g on 64bit because Oracle didn´t supply a client (9.2) for that (speaking of Windows).

And again: you still have the choice of changing the OS (without being charged by SAP) if the support politics don´t match your expectations. SAP didn´t choose the OS for you, you did (admittely, you chose with having protection of investment in mind).

But asked from the other side: is there any no-go why you can´t implement something as of now - and you NEED Windows 2008 for that? Is there a business case?

Markus

[andreurban_blumberg]

Yes SAP relies on 3rd party software, but SAP did not put a proper strategy in place to stay up-to-date on the 3rd party software (the Java stack in this case) they rely on. Remember the very same issue occurred 3 years ago already when x64 Windows was released. At that time SAP had to pay Sun to get special 1.4.2 support and that took 8 months. Everyone can make a mistake ... but it seems SAP did not learn anything from it. If SAP would have had common sense, they would have planned ahead to do a similar deal with Sun a year ago in preparation for the Windows 2008 release.

1.4.2 received EOL notification in Dec 2006 and will reach End of Service Live (EOSL) 30 Oct 2008 (see http://java.sun.com/products/archive/eol.policy.html). So SAP had plenty of notice.

You are correct, I expect investment protection. One of the key reasons to pay annual maintenance fees of 17% (and eventually 22%) is to obtain continuous technology updates and innovation, support for mainstream operating systems being one of them. SAP is pitching "Supporting Integration of third party components" as one of the reasons to justify charging 22% in future. This lacks credibility if even the OS with the largest market share of SAP installations is not properly supported (Windows is also the only OS that supports all SAP products without exception).

Why would I need a business case for adopting Windows 2008 over Windows 2003? Apart from leveraging new features in the product, if I do a standard technology refresh of my infrastructure platform and get new servers, the most sensible thing to do is to adopt the mainstream operating system at the same time.

You are right, theoretically I could switch to another operating system. But what guarantee does that provide against SAP not messing up again?

[markus_doehr2]

You are correct, I expect investment protection. One of the key reasons to pay annual maintenance fees of 17% (and eventually 22%) is to obtain continuous technology updates and innovation, support for mainstream operating systems being one of them.

Well - I don´t see Windows 2008 to be "mainstream" as of now

The Oracle DVDs don´t work (you need the 10.2.0.3 installer for 10g which is not yet delivered (by SAP)), DB2 9.1 is not certified for Windows 2008 (v9.5 is). Windows 2008 is still very new (SP1, that made is eventually usable, was release in July). If you ask me, I wouldn´t consider that "mainstream".

SAP is pitching "Supporting Integration of third party components" as one of the reasons to justify charging 22% in future. This lacks credibility if even the OS with the largest market share of SAP installations is not properly supported

That is an argument - absolutely. Annoy your sales department, open OSS calls and ask for a "solution" - but I´m sure you did that already and got that mentioned note as answer...

(Windows is also the only OS that supports all SAP products without exception).

If that is an argument for platform choice - yes.

Why would I need a business case for adopting Windows 2008 over Windows 2003? Apart from leveraging new features in the product, if I do a standard technology refresh of my infrastructure platform and get new servers, the most sensible thing to do is to adopt the mainstream operating system at the same time.

See above - I don´t think it´s mainstream (yet) and I personally think that adoption is slower than expected. I would seriously hesitate to put it in production without a longer test in-house, even if both ABAP + Java would be supported officially. I learned my lessons in the past (but that´s, however, just my personal experience and opinion).

You are right, theoretically I could switch to another operating system. But what guarantee does that provide against SAP not messing up again?

No guarantee but all other OS vendors don´t have that "problem" (or a likewise one).

Markus

[Former Member]

Hi all

I read this forum and your information with ineterest as we are installing brand new NW7.0-based systems, and were only provided a Windows 2008 CD with our Dell server....

I downloaded a SAP ppt from Product Availability Matrix about NW7.0 Products PAM, which states that Windows 2008 with SQL 2005 should be supported in Q3/2008. With a note also saying this is dependent on SUN supporting the JDK 1.4.2.

Does anyone have insight and know if SAP is close to reaching agreement with SUN, and will stick to the Q3/2008 release date ??

Many thanks if so

Best regards

Fabrice

[andreurban_blumberg]

Q3/2009 perhaps ... but certainly not this year. The PAM info is meaningless, given the conditional comment re Sun.

As far as I'm aware SAP has no roadmap yet, in fact SAP even has no date when a roadmap would be available for W2K8 support.

[Former Member]

Hello All,

lets look at this issue a bit deeper. As an IT manager responsible for signing off on SAP's annual 17% charge we should all be a bit more concerned about what SAP are doing here:

First of all SAP ECC 6.0 and all ABAP based NW 7.0 components do not need a Java stack to run. Therefore the comment from SAP "Sun don't support Java 1.4.2.xyz on Win 2008" is unacceptable. Lets not "nit pick" about the installer either - the installer can work on Java 1.5. So what about supporting ABAP components on Win2008?

Secondly SAP are not telling customers what they are doing with their Java roadmap. What Java VM's will be used now and in the future? Will SAP release their own JVM? How does SAP plan to ensure compatibility in the future with new OS and DB combinations? IT managers are responsible for planning technology and infrastructures 5+ years out. SAP where is your roadmap?

Thirdly as someone who has experience in operating a large and complex infrastructure partly using SAP Java based components (specifically BI JAVA, EP, NWDI and XI) I have a very poor opinion of SAP's choice to rush into using Java without building a proper framework.

By this I specifically mean:

1. The Transport system (yes, even CTS+) is junk and a mess

2. How do you debug it and optimize performance - compared to ABAP this is terrible

3. Monitoring - CCMS for ABAP is great. Java is shocking

4. Stability - only after weeks of optimization can you get the Java engines to stay reliable and not crash 5 times per day. Compare this to the ABAP engine that NEVER stops

5. Ease of development - sorry, when we hire pure Java developers to do SAP-Java development work they have no clue what to do. The environment is so SAP specific a pure Java developer is useless

In summary Java has created a support and operations disaster for SAP, customers and partners. What is SAP going to do about this?

Just what value are SAP adding here? Combined with comments about increasing maint. to 22%!!!

A modern SAP landscape running lot of Java components is becoming too complex and too expensive to manage. Customers are forced to install components such as solution manager and then told "No Windows Virtualization", "No Windows 2008 support" etc. All of these technologies lower the cost for customers.

It is about time a few customers start grouping together and "discounting" our 17% each year until there is an improvement in the value proposition SAP are offering, particularly reducing the cost of operating this "very expensive" software.

Maybe somebody from SAP would care to provide a reasoned and sensible response to these points - or maybe just delete this post in the thread.... maybe the attitude from SAP of late is all too familar and reminds some of us of a period in German history somewhere around World War II? Just like what happened then it would be worth remembering that you can only push your customer base so hard before they start pushing back.

Warren

[markus_doehr2]

So what about supporting ABAP components on Win2008?

SAP releases either the full Netweaver stack (aka ABAP + Java) or nothing.

I can understand this politics from a support side of view. Way too many people would try to install and run Java engines on a non-supported platform - as many as now are trying to run e. g. NW 7.0 based installation on non-supported database versions (just have a look at the forums).

Secondly SAP are not telling customers what they are doing with their Java roadmap.

That is true and was AFAIK addressed in a big discussion on the Teched (not been there) The will come out with a roadmap once it´s released. BTW: I asked a likewise question here:

/thread/1078238

Markus